PoA seduced a very young coworker and talked her into moving-in with her almost immediately. I found out when his pocket dialed me twenty days ago: he started coming home on and off( he does Not own a car and got busted with DUI in January) in March-April? I was taking him to work or to the train. And, as a shock to me, when he dropped out of communication: I was thinking that he was bing-drinking in his mama's basement, he actually found some gullible woman to stay very close to work( and we are like 35 miles drive) who can shag him and drive him to and from.
The question is that he just signed another lease with me ( when he is being already with this one, five days ago) and he gives me money I need even now- due to Covid- 19 I am having a huge financial strain, being self-employed and having a daughter in middle school. I hate the very fact that he betrayed me so easily but what I hate even more that I have to accept his money to pay expensive rent, bills etc. He gives me over 70 % of his current income.
How can I keep this limited contact gracefully and without looking and acting desperate which I am. If not for him, we will be in the streets soon. He recently started making a little more $$$ and right away he started whoring around. This woman has no idea that I exist, she has no clue that he is a narcissistic sex addict. I appreciate any advice to make me go thru this without compromising my integrity.
Last Edit: Jul 7, 2020 14:57:20 GMT -8 by Susannah
Thank you for a valuable advice. I would drive all the way to his work, he sees me outside and gives me a check. I did warn this woman in writing, vividly explaining what my thoughts were etc. She obviously disregarded and told him. He exploded and put a hold on his $1200 check, called me up and threw a show, I am pretty sure, in front of her ( he signed a lease when already staying with her, btw). Two days later he started texting me how much I needed etc and asked me to come and get another check, instead of the one he put a stop a payment on. It was a much bigger check: I was able to pay rent and my car payment. So, now he is actively lying to the new flame who really did not listen to me. By him signing a rental lease for the whole year and paying for it: I'm sure, this is control and incessant admiration issue. Yesterday the tune rapidly changed. He texted that she got fired, most likely, the management found out about the affair on premises: remember, it was happening in a very small work environment, it is an assisted living place, where he is a chef and she might be a nurse, not sure. There was lots of unnecessary drama already and I think, it will never end, if I continue to depend on him. I realize that I must keep it super polite and neutral but so far, it was not too successful. My boundaries lapse and I react instead of keeping it cool.At the same time, in these 8 weeks I feel better and look better. Started exercise and feel the difference , less stress and more calm and serene.
Thank for answering my question about the fund drop off.
FWIW the new woman: You can write your hand off, speak until you have no breath and literally beat your head upon her chest, but if she does NOT want to see who he is - she won't. Not until she is absolutely ready. He's a charmer and has acted this way for most of his life (likely). It's how he operates. He can't keep the guise going forever; sooner, later, his guise will fall and who he is will come crashing into her.
However, it has to be pretty bad if she got fired (if she is a nurse - good GOD) from a work relationship. Be thankful IT IS NOT YOU. [or it may have been something he made up if that is what he does IDK]
Keep what you wrote in mind: "There was lots of unnecessary drama" and "if I continue to depend on him" your situation is just going to continue. You need to move forward BEYOND drama and dependency on him.
Maintain the WALL of politeness and keep exercising. Put him in the rear view mirror ONCE the lease is up on the place. At least he still has a job.
Thank you again, I really appreciate your support. I will find out for sure soon what it is true and whatnot- when I am going to pick up another check which is due this Friday. Hate is a very strong emotion and I typically do not hate anyone, but his constant enturbulation does cause anxiety - I am aware of his lousy intention to mess people up and yet I hate driving up there and see his face and attitude. He is a heavy texter and he did have a meltdown texting how she lost her job( says she makes 150 year- ya, right, she lives in an actual ghetto( Waukegan,IL for those who is familiar with the area) I saw her" accommodations: when I dropped my write up). The lease started on June 5, 2020.
I do not work a regular job. I do interpreting and translation from Russian/English, tutor English and Russian, lots of USCIS submissions for those who needs it but overall the market has shrunk dramatically.
Last Edit: Jul 7, 2020 14:48:32 GMT -8 by Susannah
I am really NOT worried about her and I should not: I made her aware and that's it. She is obviously has her own issues if she let an man without change of clothes to move in rapidly with her,he is 61 and she might be 35-38.
I am determined to avoid any case discussions with him, keep it a matter-of -key and drop him off money wise as soon as I am able to. I did break up with him prior at least three or four times over the last 11 years( we have not been living together), I was raising my kid by myself, no help whatsoever( I am an emigrant) and my very lucrative profession died up during a major recession in 2008( my youngest was born in 2006). Every time I stopped chasing him, looking for him, he would somehow sneak back in. If I did not answer the phone on him, he would eventually show up on my door step with cash. He knew that I was very vulnerable, the kid's father was not a stellar parent and he took a total advantage of the situation. I am slowly but steadily returning to where I used to be but COVID-19 is making is twice as hard. Thank you for listening.
Limited Contact is always complicated. I chose LC for my relationship with my son because I still love him. I keep as far away as I can and barely stay in touch for now. When we have business I insist on email because when we talk he is very persuasive. I hope someday he stops being angry for refusing to enable him, but I have put this in God's hands.
Be aloof when you have to be in his company. Have him leave the rent in an envelope. Don't hang out in the living room. Get a tv for your bedroom. Cook when he is out of the house.
The main thing is to get him out of your head. That is the hard part.
Change is to human life what the metamorphosis is to the caterpillar; it is the inevitable cycle of life. If there is no change, there is no life. The Art of Changing by Susan Peabody.
Thank you Susannah. He left for work, I mean I took him to work on May 2, 2020 and he never showed up after work at the Metra station where I was waiting pick him up from the train and take home. So, no, physically he removed himself to sponge off and feed his ego two months ago. I just talked to him this afternoon that I would drive up to his work( it is 33 some miles) to pick his check. He usually sees me in the parking lot and steps out of the kitchen for quick three minutes and returns right back.It just the idea of driving and going thru the same sh*t gives me anxiety, mostly because I need his help, he enjoys this control tactics a lot I am sure. He has not been in my house ever since he did not come back from work. I did tell him that unfortunately since my kid is pretty upset about the whole situation, he can no longer come over for whatever reason ever. He still has all his personal belongings in my house, everything. Not to mentioned, that all his clothes I bought for him and paid for them. Of course, he was paying rent for three years, I mean he gave me money I paid everything on time. I am super organised and he is terrible with all kind of commitments, including fiscal ones. My head is getting much better. the first two weeks once he dropped out, I did not even think about him at all. I was cought up on all bills and worked with a few clients/students I had, I was really enjoying his absence.
I think, with him, I am ambivalent. The minute I found out that he dared to start an affair at work with someone at least 20 years if not more, his junior, I got angry, angry off.I would have been fine had I rejected him finally myself, which I wanted to do one million times, getting tired of tantrums, up and mostly downs, lies, deceits, manipulations. My financial dependence on him is a major obstacle at this point. It almost like he has been paying me( though he was staying with me and enjoyed all the benefits of a warm and nice home) for being a narcissist/alcoholic with antisocial traits with overlapping borderline. I did tell him to cut this stuff out many times.Which makes me co-dependent.
From your description of how you take care of him, it sounds like you are not just a love addict but a codependent love addict. Boy does your story bring back memories.
I can guarantee you that if all his belongings are still at your house that this means a few different things.
1. He feels he can come back anytime he feels like it.
2. He is binging on a new romance and does not need his things.
3. He is leaving the door open to return.
4. You are his backup plan.
5. He is a jerk.
In codependent relationships, guys or gals usually bite the hand that feeds them until they hungry again. When his new romance wears off he will try to get back in your good graces so you will continue to help him. Do not fall into this trap. Pack up all his things and put them in storage for one month. It will be worth the money to not put yourself into temptation by seeing him. He will probably be seductive and apologetic because you are his back up plan.
Stay angry until there is a complete separation. If you forgive him now you will be tempted to try one time. These guys and gals are usually seductive withholders. When they want something they are nice. When they have someone else to dance with they are withholding.
Of course, I could be wrong, but this is my two cents . . .
Change is to human life what the metamorphosis is to the caterpillar; it is the inevitable cycle of life. If there is no change, there is no life. The Art of Changing by Susan Peabody.
You are absolutely right: he is a seductive withholder and he did, as a matter of fact, this weekend ask for his clothes.I packed all his things up and it is ready to get out of my house. Once my kid goes to her dad, I will take it downstairs for him to pick it up. There will be no contact, no talking. That thought, about a pertinent back burner did cross my mind however, he became kinda rude with this heavy texting last weekend which is rather unusual for him. I was thinking the way he was eager to pay up might have been an indicative of that but no. If she lost her job because they got busted at work for having an affair at work, he might need his money now to pay her expenses: he cannot afford two households. Whatever it is, no come back allowed. I am very relieved that he is gone. I am upset about the nasty and ugly way he did it but overall, he did me a favor. I was thinking about codependency for awhile and this is a perfect opportunity to address it. My main objective is to gain financial independence and I am allocating a 6 month time frame for that.By him giving me money and, in fact, having signed a lease with me while already being with a new woman, it may mean only that: 1. he lies to her already 2. keeps controlling me because it gives him an ego boost. So, this is the time for me to concentrate on me and learn a new pattern of behavior. Thank you again for your wisdom, Susannah.
I was thinking, while going over and over first two steps( Powerlessness and Faith) about prior incidents. I do not have any exact recollections of events of my dad being emotionally unavailable. like precise moments: he did this, he did not do that- nothing. Even now, being an adult, I know he was. How to handle this? Also I came to realize that I had never witnessed any signs of affection between my parents.
Here is an update. I drove down there to pick up a check after lunch. I called earlier to agree on the amount. I also asked to throw in a couple of blank checks with just his signature. He volunteered this setup right after the meltdown following my writeup delivery to her house ( she was at work but her daughter heard me and she opened her door). The letter was direct and very unpleasant to my PoA. That's how she finally found out that he was living a double life etc.He exploded that night over the phone and texting ,put up the show in front of her, put a hold on his check ( it was June 12).Two days later he asked me to pick up another check, signed and a blank one. Asked me to let him know in two weeks the amount.He gets paid every other Friday. So, on the 10th, I pulled up in front of the kitchen and dining room huge windows. Please note, the OW'so car is conspicuously absent from the parking lot: she must have been fired indeed. He steps out and walks towards me. I said hello ( I must say, for the last months I barely spoke to him). I'm polite and neutral. He hands over three checks:the one is filled up with the amount I asked and two blank ones, just signed.I said thank you and got back in my car. Drove away. The whole encounter lasted maybe 30 seconds. Overall, I felt very good. Except, when waiting for him to step out using a side door. It was maybe 5 or 6 minutes. Here what is worth noting: 1.The writeup about him was very revealing. Direct. Sex addict, alcoholic, love bombing, then love avoiding, whoring etc, the whole nine yards. Obviously, she didn't care. Fine. He got angry and angry off. Sort of. Not for long though. Right after he had to act in front of his new flame, he started texting and offered me a bigger check. Here what comes to mind. He knows that I'm right. Because if it was not true, it's like a character assassination, bad mouthing and ultimately a ruined reputation, he would' have not ever forgiven me. On the contrary, he continues to support me. No Q&A, no nothing. No debating. At the bottom of his heart, he is aware that he is an anti-social womanizer etc. We know that he has no remorse. It must be lots of shame and no self-esteem.
2. His new woman did lose her job because of this affair. Yet, he continues helping me behind her back. How screwed up he really is? He gives me more money now and no questions asked than when we were living together.
He would have a tantrum every other Friday when I presented him with a number. But, I never asked for more than we needed and never ever misused the funds on something inappropriate. I was running my house like a clock.
I did provide a fair exchange: grocery shopping, laundry, ironing when needed, cooking fresh for him every night: he would not touch leftovers, cooking steaks and burgers etc. And of course, been working on my business projects, built two websites, was interpreting, tutoring and taking him to work every day etc.
So, now we have a luxury with my kid to enjoy a very peaceful home without a major aggravation. I feel the difference.
Last Edit: Jul 12, 2020 11:50:34 GMT -8 by Susannah
Now when I am waking up in the morning, I'm not thinking about him, it's more like what I need to get done. He still comes to mind at least twice a day, briefly, and then this thought goes away. I let myself think it out but nothing further. I reread Dr. Hare' list the other day: my PoA is almost a perfect match.Like 70 % of these traits he has manifested.
What - you mean you are WAKING UP and NOT thinking about him? How could that be! Wow - that sounds like some addiction breaking behavior. I'm seeing it. A luxury for your child having a peaceful home without aggravation. Sounds like a fantastic thing.
You are using the minimal thought of PoA technique. Allow for your mind to think about him for X amount of time, then re-direct your thoughts.
Geez - no wonder you are feeling okay - you don't have to cater to his needs. If he works in a kitchen, why were you doing all of the cooking? Boy, not having to prepare his food, groceries, laundry and IRONING - your time is now your own. I can't think of a better trade off - him out, you back in.
I LOL'ed at your posts about his and her job situation. SMH. Thank goodness it is NOT you. Not your problem. I say that is a huge win.
Thank you, sexlessw, for your thought, it really helps. I do think about him but not obsessively. it is rather like what an idiot he is, having traded me off for some low life ghetto hoe. But then reality sinks in:his antisocial behavior, lies, deceits, low impulse control, recent DUI etc and I come to realize that honestly, it is me who put up with all this sh*t. He continued to be who he was all the way. He is a chef but when he works 12-13 hour shift, he does not want to touch the kitchen. But when he was off, I says honey please fix something up and he did. Still complaining etc. I am unavailable. For sure. When I figured out all his modern terms: seductive withholder, love avoidant, sex and alcohol addict, borderline overlapping psychopathic traits: no remorse, reckless etc, I tried to break up with him and yet let him back every time he crawled in. It happened more than ones, more than twice.
I am and have been unavailable. That's what needs to be addressed now. I do a lot of reading and studying: almost done with Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl( It is me!) and still working on Susan's The Art of Changing and Addiction to Love. I came across Robin Norwood's Women Who Love Too Much twenty years ago.I clearly see the pattern of tolerating stuff that needs to be rejected from the very start: lying ,ghosting, withholding to create anxiety etc. I make notes when I read and then I re-read them and pause. I also read steps 1 & 2 and boy is this difficult!
I am over here giving you POWER SALUTES. I had a good laugh at your revelations about our xPOA. Not that they were humorous, but that when our eyes are open, the sun blinds us with its disinfectant. Your eyes are WIDE OPEN and you are fully seeing him for what he is. Not who he pretended to be. No more lying junkie mind for you.
Now as for having him crawl back in JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE DONE - BTDT. I would wager that there are many of us who willingly let the PoA back in 3,4,5 and more times. [looks around, raises hand...that's me] The MOST DIFFICULT part is forever shutting that door on him when he knocks.
You are doing great work. I see you've done your reading. Good for you. You know the lingo and the operations of the PoAs. If you're anything like me, besides notes, there are passages I have underlined in the books. And quotes I've written out. Wonderful materials for when I was feeling down.
Nobody said this self work would be simple. Hard work builds minds. You are doing so wonderfully.
I really wanted to post throughout the last week but I suck at typing using a tablet so I had to wait till I get home. Last Friday I got two checks: one was from my PoA and the other I got for my little interpreting job. So we decided with my daughter to get away for a couple of days, to regroup and such. Initially we were planning to go to Wisconsin Dells but it turned out that most of their pools at motels and /or hotels remained closed and we ruled out the more expensive places to stay at like Kalamari resort.
We wanted to have fun on a budget. We drove to Lake Geneva, WI( we reside in Metropolitan Chicago) where we booked a nice room at a very reasonable rate. We left on Sunday afternoon. The place was clean, not crowded( it is a virtue nowadays) and affordable. Sure thing, on Sunday night I am getting a text from PoA to email his resume to someone. I was handling all his job maneuvers, resume updates, list of references etc. myself before. He does not even own a computer. Wait a second, I told myself. He has no idea that I am out of town. And I do not have to jump through the hoops for him anymore. I am basically unavailable.
I hate lying, too. I prefer not to. No matter who I am talking to . It is just not me. But I could not and would not tell him that, all of a sudden, I have a life, outside of his control. So, I texted that I was staying with a friend because I was not feeling well.
I did read my books( I brought with me), sitting by the pool and talking to my kid. We have an excellent relationship with her. She tells me things that I would never, in a million years,tell to my mom. Ever. I was also studying my notes, as well as reading posts on this board which gave me lots of ideas and revelations.
Of coarse, it took me at least 48 hours to respond to him. And another 48 to text him back. He sounded kinda dry though mentioned that" honey, it is just more money we."
I did email his resume last night, not immediately mind you. Because he sent another text.
He screwed up at his current job with that affair, he told me that "everyone knows". Too bad.
Sure, it is Not his fault.
I have to admit, once I got home there were some minor moments of sadness which passed relatively quickly. I do not dwell on what had happened but I am not being obsessed over it either. Not rushing, not pushing away but moving slowly to concentrate on me and my family.
Last Edit: Jul 17, 2020 15:28:56 GMT -8 by Susannah
A few more revelations. Being a codependent sucks. Over-pleasing people sucks, too. Now, going forward, I try to evaluate and re-evaluate my response on every request that comes in, all across the board. One of my clients got some job done elsewhere. Mistakes were made. Now she is emailing me with questions asking basically to fix them. I am Not going to do it. I used to. She has chosen to use her friend to apply for SBA which she obviously did incorrectly.Usually I charge a small fee for those who do not speak or read English well enough to figure things out and also I am able to follow up if necessary. But in this instance it is not even my problem. I am getting ready to say no.
Love addiction revelation. When I feel sadness, sort of, I immediately remind myself that, BTW, my PoA:
possesses superficial charm, at least, with certain women type( I am sure he is instantly rejected by healthy individuals),
has a constant need for stimulation due to boredom,
he is a pathological liar,
never ever any trace of remorse,
shallow feelings, almost no emotions,
callous, lack of empathy,
was sponging off his mother for years, living in her full of mold and bad smell basement- parasitic lifestyle,
poor behavior control,
risky and compulsive behavior,
mood swings and depression,
chronic failure to accept responsibility for his own actions.
These traits I have observed over the years.
I was being gullible and naive. I think, I loved the idea of being with someone I got used to, but I did not like him that much. I know it probably sounds weird. But I am having a real difficulty of identifying this.
And then I snap out of it. Want to arrive to a condition/mental state when I feel complete and utter indifference. I never hate people, so it should do it.
In late May, when I did not know what was going on with my PoA, why he, after two plus weeks, was not asking to come back home, I hired a private investigator. That's how I found out that he, in fact, was no longer staying in motels by his place of work. I got a footage when I saw him exiting work with this chick. Of course, I was in a shock. I did not expect that at all. But what is still horrible is that that PI almost immediately, half way into this assignment, starting communicating with me way too often. I realized that it felt like a love bombing after a day or two. He did not charge me either. Than he got super upset when I, in a very mild manner, rejected him. Mama mia, I cannot believe I came across the very similar, intense pattern. Full stop.
Next week there was another guy from Chicago, some musician who started sending instant messages me on FB. I listened to his youtube video, nothing that I really liked, so I expressed no interest. First of all, I am in no condition to date or even meet anybody. But I came to realize that I do not have to respond to every guy who comes my way because I do not want to come across as rude or arrogant.
Since I filed for divorce from my kid's father in 2008, I really did not date: I was busy raising my kid. I have no family in this country, except my children. My PoA was in and out of my life all those years because he knew well that I, being a dedicated parent, would not even consider dating. Which I did not.
Which brings me to the subject of this post: I am not dating now, not only because it is inappropriate from all angles, but because I have to get out of codependency first. And, more importantly, I am no longer agreeing into talking me into dating and or marrying someone because someone was too persistent. Too much passion did not work out. Now I can see why. It happened for wrong reasons.
Post by RoseNadler on Jul 18, 2020 11:17:58 GMT -8
“ But I came to realize that I do not have to respond to every guy to comes my way....”
Just because a man approaches you, does NOT mean you have to respond to him.
You don’t owe any man a response.
Some of them really become jerks when you say no, or try to discourage them. But - that’s NOT your fault. You don’t owe a man a response, period.
How he chooses to behave after your non-response is on HIM. If he gets angry or says rude things, that says more about him than it does about you.
You have a right to turn a man down, or to let him know (in some way) that you don’t want to play. IT IS NOT UP TO HIM.
A lot of men need to grow up and understand that - although they are allowed to approach a woman - they are NOT guaranteed a “yes” response. Stick to your guns and keep saying no if you mean no. If we all do this, men will start learning better.
The most important person in YOUR life is YOU. Not your xPoA. The second next important person in your life is YOUR DAUGHTER. Think of it this way. If you're not healthy - mentally, physically - how can you show her a healthy life? How can you be present for her if you are involved with men and dating and doing other things?
Good for you for NOT jumping and sending his resume. Honestly, I'd pull something the next time - "Sorry PoA! My computer fritzed out and oh drat! I was unable to send ANYTHING. Gosh. It will take me a while to get things sent out again. Too bad, so sad...Thanks for your check!!!"
Then I read his traits you have identified. Can I give you a word? LEWZER (aka LOSER). Sorry. I had to write it. You want to be with a WINNER not a LEWZER.
You are doing fine. Taking that trip with your daughter was the BEST thing you did for you and her right now.
Here is a little update: I got an amount confirmed today over the phone since he gave me two blank checks two weeks ago.
I have to admit that I was able to speak to him in a calm manner. I have not experienced any anxiety or worry. Fear was never present, only anxiety which is gone now.
I also remembered that very early, when I just met him may a month or two into a "relationship" on there was an ugly situation. I came by the restaurant he was working at as a chef. We are standing outside talking. And this girl comes over- she is one of the waitresses who worked for a very short while there and was let go because there was absolutely no business. She is like in her mid twenties. My xPoA was 50. He, all of a sudden, turns over to her and strikes a conversation, in front of me, completely ignoring me like I was not there, laughing: do you remember now where do you live? I was stunned. I was never treated like that before. By anybody. Never. She smiles, answers and walks into the joint. I met her, too a couple of nights before, she was also Russian, trying to bartender to make a little extra cash. She was always super friendly to me. Later on she told me that he was hitting on her at work but she did not care. Now, in retrospect, I remember talking to him about this "accident", him brushin it off like it did not matter. He kept saying I love you I love you like ten times in a row, without stopping. What an idiot I was. I told him that his entourage had to go and he kinda agreed.Giving ultimatums, especially more than once, defeats the purpose. He did cooperate or pretended to and then back to the old self. I knew that the best prediction of the future performance is the past behavior however, I never followed thru.
Another thing. Three years ago, in March, I found out that we, my daughter and I, needed to move pretty fast. The guy who purchased my townhouse after a foreclosure and let me rent it , decided to sell it. Which he did, we checked later on.
We( my xPoA and I) did not live together at the time, he was on and off in my life. Well, when he started the job at Hilton and gained more confidence, he started coming over( with some cash) more regularly. Since I broke off with him on numerous occasions prior, I really did not plan anything that would include him. He would show up when it was convenient for him and not necessarily fit my schedule. I was working some part time job- I could not go back to business as a mortgage broker because business was slow and I stayed home for a long time raising my kid. Anyway, I was paying my rent and bills at that old place even without him present but he kept insisting.
Anyway, I needed to move. He knew how important it was for me. So I asked him if he would sign a lease with me: I needed to show enough income to qualify and my credit history was excellent. His- not that much.
He said that he would but did not touch the lease for hours. It was just sitting on the desk, he was watching TV in my house, on my couch, dragging his feet and watching me at the same time. I was worried. He knew it, saw it and yet did not move his finger to sign it in front of me. I probably cooked him something, that I have no recollection of. I went to bed.
Only in the morning I found a signed lease on the desk by the computer. He did it so slow intentionally.
He helped me move, too in a very crude way. His buddies were sloppy and dropped my furniture a few times. He got moody, depressed and went to his mother's house right after. Sulking. Sending nasty texts as always.
To this day I never brought it up. That I never expected or more importantly, wanted him to live with me.
I was just fine with him visiting.
On a few occasions, when he would pull over in front of my garage at around 11 pm, I did not open the door for him.
I did ask him to please come over from Hilton as soon as he was done with his cooking job. Not to bother if it was after 10 pm: honey, if you could not come over on time, please do not come at all, just go to your mom's house. Please honey.
Since he has been in people's pleasing business all his life, he would stay at work late, doing someone else's work. I saw it. I asked him not to get in other people's business. Cooking after hours or plating or helping with banquets etc.
But: I never asked him to move in with me.
All I wanted was for him to co-sign a lease so I would get an apartment where my daughter could walk to school in less than five minutes.
I think, if I dump this old news on him now, he will get irate. Even now, such a blow to his self esteem.
It feels that the most dysfunctional relationship of my life was a never ending power play.